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Ancestry redux[edit]

Sorry to show up so late in the party, but I just read this vituperative debate about Ziryab's origins. I noted that of the five citations purportedly supporting the claim that he was of Persian origin, two (the Encyclopedia Britannica citation and the book by Grajter) nowhere assert that he was born in Persia. One (Monroe) refers to him as a "Persian musician" which is indisputably true in the sense that he was, like his teacher Al Mawsili, a singer in the Persian style; but that does not mean that he was originally from Persia. Only two of the citations refer to him as a "Persian", and they, too, seem to be talking about his style of singing, not necessarily his ethnicity.

The problem with these citations may be that the links point to the wrong places. So, whoever put these citations there, please check the links. If they are not corrected in the next few days, I think we should probably delete the erroneous citations.


--Ravpapa (talk) 13:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure Britannica is not considered a RS either. --Semsûrî (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are being sarcastic, but I will answer seriously. First of all, Britannica is certainly a reliable source. Secondly, you are correct (somewhat) that the title of the webpage on the link provided is indeed "Ziryab Persian Musician". However, there is nothing in the text cited that suggests that Ziryab was born in Persia; indeed, the text cited is not a biography of Ziryab, but a passing reference to him in a general article about Arabic music. And, as I noted in my first post, Ziryab was indisputably a Persian musician, in the sense that the style of music he learned and played was Persian. I therefore don't think you can use this citation to support the statement that Ziryab was born in Persia.
Please note that I am not suggesting we change the text in any way. I am only suggesting that we remove footnotes that do not actually support the claim, and leave only those citations that are relevant.

--Ravpapa (talk) 12:13, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like pure WP:OR conclusions, none of the RS sources talk about his style. Also, Semsuri is correct; Britannica is not WP:RS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:19, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(1)Semsuri is not correct and neither are you. Britannica is a reliable source. The latest discussion of this issue is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_281#Britannica.com
(2) when you say this seems pure WP:OR, do you mean the conclusion that the encyclopedia is referring to his birthplace or that it is referring to his style? Either one is OR - aside from the two words "Persian Musician" the article gives no details either way. So you are right, either conclusion is OR, and that is precisely why the reference should be deleted.
(3) You and Semsuri seem passionate about keeping this dubious reference, and I don't feel that strongly about it. In my view, including references to a statement that do not in fact support the statement only makes that statement more questionable. There are other sources listed that specifically support the statement, and they of course should remain. But, hey, if that's the way you feel, go for it. I take it all back.

--Ravpapa (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Britannica, see [1]. When I say this seems to be pure WP:OR, I'm referring to your conclusions - this looks like WP:JDLI to me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are relying on a discussion on a user page that is five years old. I am referring to the reliable sources notice board, which is the authoritative place to discuss the issue of reliability, to a discussion of only a few months ago.
But why am I arguing? If you think it is an unreliable source, then we should by all means remove it. I will do so, since we agree. I will also remove footnote number four, which certainly does not assert that Ziryab was Persian. I will leave the others, even though I think that two of the three are dubious.

--Ravpapa (talk) 16:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Be it ten years old, it is still quite relevant. Restored footnote number four, as it literally says he may have been Persian. The very footnote is used for the Kurdish and Arab origin suggestion as well. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]